Fake People

[shana70]

`Hi I am new here, and have been reading this for the past few minutes. I felt I should say something due to the fact that joining this site .. for me.. was to find like minded people, men and women within my culture, or not, to help me learn the beliefs, that I was wrongfully stripped of. It took me 10 years to find my roots. To learn the story of why I was taken away, and so forth. There is nothing worse than being raised or living life with a feeling of emptiness. Since discovering who I am, where I come from, many things made sense, as to my behavior and "strange" habbits, after I was taken from my mother. But I know nothing.. and with her being gone now for years, I want to honor my blood line, show respect to those who walked before me, who maybe thought of me thru time, the process of being welcomed back home, is not such an easy one. One day, I will be home in every sense of the word. But until then, I listen, I learn, I ask questions. So my question to everyone is.. if we spend so much time proving who is who.. shouldn't we spend equal or double the effort to help our people? Volunteer in our tribal communities, help our elders, inspire our children? I think DOING is much greater than Claiming! This is just my opinion.. Now if anyone can help me .. I am taking classes to learn the language.. and doing much reading on Cherokee beliefs. However, at times I have questions, for I do not completely understand.. anyone know anyone who would be willing to tutor or guide me?

[alvie (deleted)]

The way i see it, this story about 'fake indians' has got two sides.
When i go for a walk on the boulevard (the commercial circus along the beach) i can buy the most idiot things in the souvenirshops: Winnie the Pooh-towels, lighters with images of moving fish, Justin Bieber stickers, icecream, plastic flowers, Budha incenseholders, plastic toys, shells....and so on.
And.....plates and posters of Native Americans, among all the kitch and trash to be sold as souvenirs.
Seen from this side it's allmost a shame that a great nation 's been degrated to an image, a doll or a drawing for the decoration on the sidetable or on the wall.
But......there is another side: 'cause without exception, there is something that all the souvenirs, images and drawings of the Native American have in common: they symbolize greatness, they symbolize pride and strength.
that's the other side.
Most people don't know why they like these 'native souvenirs', and buy it just for fun. But sóme see something in it that they can not explain.
Mighty impressed by this intense experience they buy the souvenir, hang it on the wall at home and try to recall that experience.
As far i'm able to understand, to me it seems that lots of us white people have trouble to find a true identitiy. To be a person that says something about who they are, that's difficult in a society of 'shortcuts', of instant desire.
I think that's the whole point, that these 'fake Indians' recognize something in the pride of the Native they can't describe. It is hidden, somewhere, deep inside. Something that can be easily translated to something to identify with. All the 'fullfillings' like television, ipods, microwaves, and make-up can become quite superficial in essence next to that, what's been liked to believe, hidden part that say something about who we really are.

It's just my view, that it might be a reason for being a copy-Indian, because we look up to this nation, we admire them.....they had (and i hope they still have) that something true, original or pure that we left behind the fires of desire and insatiable curiosity.
So you might as well take it as a compliment: the meaning of the copy-Indian is our desire to be part of the way we see you: people of a nation, of pride and strength.

[apache2u]

`Nothing seems to ever change on here same old attacks on who and what someone is

[alvie (deleted)]

`To apache2u i sincerely would like to ask if there is something i have written that sounds like i 'attack' anyone?
I have no intentions to offend anyone at all.
best regards.

[apache2u]

[deleted]

[apache2u]

`I was just reading the previous post and it's always the same so many others worried about the fake or not fake natives.I hardly ever come in here anymore, because of the hatred that seems to spill out of mouths.

[texas1950 (deleted)]

`As I read the following words I sound like a hater but I am not. Married 5 times. Two Indians, 2 Whites, one Polock and my son's dad is white. Just throwing my $0.02 in.

I am half Tuscarora from my dad. I an ¼ Irish from grand father off the boat and ¼ German from grand mother off the boat. From my fathers side I learned how to hunt. be strong of body and my spiritual side . From my mom I learned to appreciate the arts, cultural things and be a great mom. From both I learned morals and ethics and to use my head. My world during the formative years was primary American Indian and it was a tough hard life, I got in fights every day to prove I was as tough and strong as the other kids in the family, but it was also filled with love, a very tight family and sense of belonging.

As I walked around the lands that my father's family had walked on from as long as anyone knew I felt not only connected to the family but to the land.

I was born and raised in Michigan until I was eight and had no idea I was an Indian. Moved to the Indian Community at 8 and a different world. As a half breed I was in a way jumped in to the American Indian family. My mom was the first white in the family since the early 1600's. She endured a lot of rejection and isolation as the women had nothing or very little to do with her. And her family diowned her. In time they (Indians) began to know mom for the good woman she was and she was our mom. Thank God it was a matriarch society When she passed away everyone felt the loss. Indians by nature will talk crap about any one, but no one said one bad word against my mom.

Having been a once upon a time a non Indian I see both sides of the road. As an American Indian ever time I hear someone say I am an “Native American” I just laugh. Because there is no way on planet earth that 99.88% of the people in the US have any Indian in them. If that were the case those poor men/women would of stopped walking when they turned 16. In the first 100 years the whites/Spanish were in the New world around 75% of the Indians were wiped out by the Spanish, diseases and wars.

I appreciate the fact that many whites want to find a drop of “Native American” blood some where in there family. Why I have no Idea. One thing I wonder about how many whites with Indian blood got it through rape?

Strange thing is I have yet to find someone who said “my family member was one of the brave men who helped massacre women and children”. They helped march them to Wounded Knee or we have scalps from hanging on the wall from a famous battle. Or my family has lived here ever since we took the land from the savages who said they were here first. Just last week I heard a news man say no one was here when the whites landed. This is what gets the Indian's goat.

My son never says he is American Indian although he has a Native American Indian ID card. To him he is white as his dad is full Scottish and his mom is only ½ Indian. He is an apple. The one thing he takes pride in from his mixed blood is all the men in his blood line were men. And that is what he had to live up to. The whole family including his Hispanic wife and Hispnic step kids just take pride in who he is.

Why can't people just tke pride in being a good decent person.

[loveternal (deleted)]

alvie wrote: The way i see it, this story about 'fake indians' ....

Alvie, what do you think of the South American natives living here in Europe, who are pretending to be North American natives? They are on the streets dressed in their Hollywood style, and probably "made in Taiwan regalia" in the style of 1800s Plains Natives, as they play their "panpipe" music from South America. I have seen them in London, Amsterdam, Paris, Zürich, Berlin, they are all over the place in Europe!

I dont think many Natives in North America realize that South American natives are exploiting them here in Europe. I read in your profile that you are from Holland, so I just thought I would ask you what are your thoughts on this, so others on this site can at least be aware of this weird type of exploitation that is happening over here. Or maybe you think that what these South American natives are doing is ok? I dont know. Educate me

[alvie (deleted)]

`Hi Loveternal

Not that long ago i worked in a constructionstore when a woman with two children approached me. They were dressed in average European clothes, but in their eyes and face i saw something that got my curiosity. I hád to ask her, i could not hold back:,,Forgive me for asking, but do you have Native roots? Are you from Native american origin?" It was obviously not a question she'd expected in a (Dutch) store. But she comfirmed:,, Yes, i am a Native, i am a South American Native."
I couldn't help myself (lol), i told her the way i feel meeting her, i told her it was an honour to me meeting her, an honour to me talking to a Native woman.
She didn't know how to react. She was surprised and a little confused at the same time:
,,I don't know what to say. I'm used to be considered as just another foreigner........"

In Hollywoodmovies, paintings, images and books the Native always is presented as a proud warrior, in beautiful and colourful clothes and feathers. And besides that we in Europa (and i guess also in the U.S.) devine the status of a loner (the Clint Eastwoods). And the loner 'owns' the land he walks upon: gazing at the horizon and in awareness of his 'being' he is a man with (inner) strength. And it might sound silly, stupid even, but i think the Plains of North America from that view are important to comfirm the strength of the Native American.
Those images and other presentations do only fit the the North American Native. Not the Eskimo or the Southern Native.
From this point of view the white man might have developed a universal idea of the Native and symbolised the people by own interpretation.

It is just an idea. But imagine yourself, being a Native American in Europe. A Southern Native, but still a Native in blood, heart and mind and you feel limited to express your roots because it doesn't fit in the idea we have of the 'Indian'. Your people live and lived in the jungle and do not have those beautiful clothes. Your nation doesn't fit in the romantic idea......
Not that i want to justify it, but i think i can understand why a Southern soul adds some water to the wine by adapting his cultural identity a little to the Northern kind so he/she still can express his/her roots as a Native american.

Again: it is just a way i try to see it. And so to answer your question, that if i find it oké, i can only say that i don't have an opinion to judge (them) on this. I can only explain the way i try to see.

But thank you Loveternal. I was away for a while, and your 'invitation' tickled me. Hope to share more thoughts with you in the future!

[loveternal (deleted)]

`I know what you are saying, Alvie. In Germany, almost every child reads the Karl May book about "Winnetou", which is filled with a lot of untruths from which people create a stereotype of Natives. So long as someone is dark skinned, has long black hair, wears feathers and powwow regalia and says a couple of "heya heyas" and some horribly mispronounced Lakota words at some point in their South American panpipe music, the Germans just eat it up. The South American Indians who do this, are perpetuating that stereotype for the people here. But when money becomes a part of this communication, this is where I have a problem with it. But this is just my opinion.

People are not really concerned about authenticity it seems. I know that when I travel to Switzerland to experience some Alpen Kultur, I would be really disappointed if all I saw was nothing but white Americans who cannot really speak Swiss German or any German dialect, but yet are dressed in the Swiss "traditional" attire and blowing Alpenhorns really horribly. I would not be getting the "real deal", and that would really frustrate me hahahaha!!

I think when people hang onto stereotypes, it might be because of their own low self-esteem. And believing in the stereotypes helps keep them in some denial of their own reality. Which means, since they are not concerned about authenticity, they themselves are not being authentic, as well.

[bikaagi (deleted)]

`We indigenous people are the only people that have to prove who we are. What makes someone "legitimately" Native American? And who gets to make that determination? "Fundamentally, it's the tribe’s right to determine who its citizens are and are not. If we don't know (whether someone is Native American), we can ask the tribe," but in actuality it’s the government that makes that determination. Native American recognition in the United States most often refers to the process of a tribe being recognized by the United States federal government, or to a person being granted membership to a federally recognized tribe. I can say I’m Dine’ but if I cannot prove whom I am then I am considered non-acknowledged Dine’ meaning I have no rights as a Dine’. I don’t exist as belonging to the Dine’ Nation. We are branded with a census number, given a certificate of Indian blood (CIB), a tribal enrollment card, & a birth certificate. If we don’t carry these items with us then we can’t apply for a driver license, federal jobs, & other federal programs of entitlement. It’s a never-ending story for Native Americans, we are the only peoples that are scrutinize for who we are.

[loveternal (deleted)]

bikaagi wrote: `We indigenous people are the only people that have to prove who we are .... We are branded with a census number, given a certificate of Indian blood (CIB), a tribal enrollment card, & a birth certificate.
When you wrote the words "branded with a ... number", that reminded me of how Nazi Germany branded the Jewish people and others, whom they sent to die in the concentration camps during World War II. I have read someplace that Hitler got his ideas for the concentration camps from how America set up the reservations.

[loveternal (deleted)]

bikaagi wrote: What makes someone "legitimately" Native American? And who gets to make that determination? "Fundamentally, it's the tribe’s right to determine who its citizens are and are not .... but in actuality it’s the government that makes that determination. Native American recognition in the United States most often refers to the process of a tribe being recognized by the United States federal government, or to a person being granted membership to a federally recognized tribe.
I can understand how a tribe needs to set up its rules concerning membership. I learned about how some tribes use a process that involves meeting certain blood quantum requirements to be considered for tribal enrollment. In some cases, I can see how that may prove detrimental to tribes. For example, if someone from one tribe marries another Native from a different tribe. My understanding is that one tribe (or maybe both?) will consider children from such a marriage as only half from their tribe. And if that keeps happening, generation after generation, eventually no one will be able to meet those blood quantum requirements anymore. And then maybe America will no longer acknowledge that group as "federally recognized". To require this "federal recognition" from America, means being dependent on America.

So I can understand how some tribal members of a certain tribe may only want to associate with their own. That is understandable. But there is a side effect from that process, if taken to its extreme, which could also prove detrimental to the members of that tribe, as well. It is unfortunate on hand, but I can see how it appears to be a necessity on the other hand. But either way, it seems like America may see this as a way for tribes to fall apart. Its just my opinion, that's all.

[brandongp605 (deleted)]

bikaagi wrote: `We indigenous people are the only people that have to prove who we are. What makes someone "legitimately" Native American? And who gets to make that determination? "Fundamentally, it's the tribe’s right to determine who its citizens are and are not. If we don't know (whether someone is Native American), we can ask the tribe," but in actuality it’s the government that makes that determination. Native American recognition in the United States most often refers to the process of a tribe being recognized by the United States federal government, or to a person being granted membership to a federally recognized tribe. I can say I’m Dine’ but if I cannot prove whom I am then I am considered non-acknowledged Dine’ meaning I have no rights as a Dine’. I don’t exist as belonging to the Dine’ Nation. We are branded with a census number, given a certificate of Indian blood (CIB), a tribal enrollment card, & a birth certificate. If we don’t carry these items with us then we can’t apply for a driver license, federal jobs, & other federal programs of entitlement. It’s a never-ending story for Native Americans, we are the only peoples that are scrutinize for who we are.



Yes, all that card carrying can get annoying at times. And there is the that "blood quantum" too, on my card it says I'm "13/32 Lakota" and that leaves out my Cheyenne and Arapaho blood-lines which i'm 1/8 accordingly. So if I find someone outside the tribal nation i'm enrolled into, I can't enroll them into my tribe which sucks. I've meet a Native person when I was a wildland firefighter from the American southwest who is Navajo, Hopi, Mayan, Aztec and Cherokee with her blood being 20% accordingly and she can't enroll into any Native American Tribe in the USA because she doesn't have that 1/4 blood requirement to enroll which made her angry, she even took a DNA test and it proved she was full-blooded Indigenous American and she has issues with the blood quantum rules in the United States.

I think that the Native Tribes of the USA should consider DNA test and has long as the individual can prove she/he may have at least tiny amount of blood of the tribe they are trying to enroll into backed by paper work etc., and have any blood form any other Indigenous group, then they should be able to enroll. We have many people with many bloodlines from several different Indigenous groups who can't even enroll because of the current blood quantum rules by the Federal Government and Tribal Nations. The blood quantum rules even effects our population count on the census and it undermines our true Indigenous population. Let's not forget the Indigenous People who have immigrated to the USA from South America, Mexico and Central America and they number about ten million according to a survey posted in Indian Country Today and surveyed by a few Indigenous organizations. Rather we are enrolled or not, and rather they come from an Indigenous Group from south of the border, we should all work together. Indigenous people from across the Americas all do meet up at the annual All Nations Pow Wow in New Mexico, we should all expand that to working together in trade and uniting for common goals. There are Indigenous People from across the Americas working together for a common goal, but that isn't enough.

Does anyone have any opinions or suggestions on this subject?

[brandongp605 (deleted)]

[quote="loveternal"] bikaagi wrote: `We indigenous people are the only people that have to prove who we are .... We are branded with a census number, given a certificate of Indian blood (CIB), a tribal enrollment card, & a birth certificate.
When you wrote the words "branded with a ... number", that reminded me of how Nazi Germany branded the Jewish people and others, whom they sent to die in the concentration camps during World War II. I have read someplace that Hitler got his ideas for the concentration camps from how America set up the reservations.

There is some truth in what you said. Well, the United States Government performed racist eugenics programs (experiments with abortions, sterilizations etc) on unknowing or unwilling Native Men and Women to so-called manage the Native population. So Hitler did get the ideal of his pseudo eugenics programs from the United States's Indigenous policy that stems form the early to mid part of the 1900's. Most Natives have issues with the United States Government and the attempted assimilation by the Catholic Church. But we, for the most part, get along fine with most other Americans. I'm getting a little too political perhaps, we are on a dating/chat site, so I'll leave it right there.